Arsenal were a massive club before Wenger & will be after Wenger!

Comments

1. Erichero says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:02 am

   Quite clearly you don’t appreciate what we have.

   I suggest you take a break from supporting Arsenal, breathe in deeply and then revisit your loyalty once the dust has settled.
2. FATGINGER says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:06 am

   massive club before wenger????

   ARE YOU ON CRACK!!??

   if i remember rightly we were a mid table side who played the most boring football and ground out 1-0 wins. Where do you think the terms boring,boring arsenal, and one-nil to the arsenal came from?

   Wenger and Bergkamp along with David Dein turned this club around and into what it is today, a successful, well run club with a fantastic team, brilliant stadium and a team who play brilliant football.

   football is dominated by clubs in waves. Liverpool had there run, then Man United, and now i honestly believe it will be us for the next decade. People need to have patience.

   before the season we werent even expected to finish in the top 4, but because Wenger has worked his magic and done so well and got us to the top of the league, people are now turning on him for it.
3. Dwayen says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:09 am

   Great post. Some fans only know life under wenger
4. Barry Bethell says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:10 am

   I feel you are wrong on this one, I am obviously not as old as you, I only remember Rioch and Graham. Both playing dull football in comparison. It is all very well saying out with Wenger but who do you suggest replaces him?? We have had a relatively good season but seem to struggle against the big boys this year and beat the lower teams, the opposite to last year. We are not that far away! + Man U & Chelsea have much harder fixtures coming up, once we’ve played Liverpool and Chelsea we have played the “big 4 teams” home and away.
5. arsenalaction says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:11 am

   “
   

   Wenger and Bergkamp along with David Dein turned this club around and into what it is today, a successful

   ”

   Thats funny, Im sure bergkamp was at the club before wenger : ))
6. arsenal4ever says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:12 am

   spot on!!! Exactly the same I thought!! He should manage the french national team. Lets get us Hiddink!!!! HE wants to come I am sure of that. If Fabregas leave cause for Wenger he can go I dont care!! It is time for a big change. Wenger has lost it!!! He wont change unless someone will show him real preassure. But do you think the board will sack him or better he will resign at the end of season. My oppionion is he thinks he is the god of Arsenal and without him we are nothing. But thats not the truth. 5 seasons without winning anything is enough. Go away legend Wenger!!
7. jimbo says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:15 am

   well said fatginger. I’m 27 and got my first season ticket for the 88-89 season so i know how blessed i’ve been to support a successful club, but i also know that wenger turned us from “just another club” to one of the greatest and biggest clubs on the planet, all the while keeping us afloat
8. Lee says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:15 am

   We dont need a new manager, i think we need a new assitant manager who will stand up to wenger and tell him he is wrong sometimes.
9. Alzation says:
   February 2, 2010 at 11:18 am

   Arsenal were a big club in England before Wenger. We were about as big as Everton and Spurs at the time.

   We are now a big club globally, light years ahead of Everton and Spurs

   A little perspective goes a long way.

   And regarding Bergkamp, it has been reported that David Dein signed him on the recommendation of his friend Arsene Wenger.
10. Gooner77 says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:19 am

    Errrr yeah we were still a big club, but also the biggest club in England that was known as playing the dullest, most boring anti-football. During time we would regulary finish as low as 10th in the league, what’s the lowest we have ever finished under Wenger?
    The premise of the article? That Wenger needs to go because we lost on Sunday, a loss that leaves us 3rd in the table and still in the Champions League. Don’t get me wrong, I was disgusted with some of our players on Sunday and losing at home in the manner we have done to Chelsea and Man Utd on four occasions now is deeply worrying. My worry is that instead of growing up into a team of winners this team is being mentally scarred by losing the big games on the regular.
    However honestly who would we replace Wenger with? What is a better solution? Everyone says he should of bought someone in the transfer window but how many club did any transfer of note? It looks to me like the recession is catching up with football clubs, Manchester United supporters are up in arms with their owners despite winning 3 titles on the trot, a European Cup and several domestic cups. I’m not saying Wenger is perfect and his faults drive me mad at times as well, but we should really be careful what we wish for here.
11. the gun says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:19 am

    i also support wenger’s sacking. some fans out there believe wenger is above criticism, but honestly we all know the man has failed over and over again and will continue to fail over and over again. the difference between him and fergusen is that fergie learns from his mistakes. he stubbornly sticks to a philosophy (youth) that is not capable of breeding success. he improves the players and just before they become established he sells them. i feel sorry for fabregas, he is a world class and deserves more trophies, the boy needs to go so he may win.
12. FATGINGER says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:20 am

    you’re correct Bergkamp was at the club before Wenger. the reason i put his name on their was to demonstrate that i am aware of what happened prior to AW coming in and that i dont have a blinkered view of ‘AW is the saviour of everything’. The fact we had Bergkamp allowed us to attract better players and for that reason he was a key part of this club turning around.
13. matnan says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:21 am

    “we were pretty poor in the early 80s and finished most seasons in 7th and sometimes even worst”.

    Are we now in 7th? Do we have to sack wenger just because we are now better than before?

    You are still in the past. wake up mate. Did we have to compete a team like chelsea and man city before? Did we have to pay debt up to 300 mil before?
14. Bonksy says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Fatginger, stick to eating pies, you know less about Arsenal then you do about dieting.

    Arsene Wenger did not buy Bergkamp, Rioch did – as for the successes that Arsene tasted in the early days, most of the team was inherited by him from the George Graham days – Adams, Bould, Seaman, Parlour, Wright, Dixons, Winterburn to name a few. Now go for a jog and dye your hair, and let the adults speak.

    I know what the original poster is saying. Arsenal have always been a big club, was the Bank of England club in the 30′s not because we had bankers at directors, but because we were so good, you could bet all the money in the Bank of England on them to win. 60′s and 70′s we were a fantastic side, 80′s and 90′s we were winning trophies for fun – still the first club to win both domestic trophies. What Arsene has brought in the early days was revolutionary, but now every club does it, to include new diets for players, training, methodoloy and psychology to football. However these are outweighed by his lack of success over the last 5 years, and I for one, as a season ticket holder nearly 30 years, have had enough. I have never left a game feeling as frustrated as I have, for the last 2 seasons. I find myself swearing and threatening to beat people up – something in the days of when we were truly terrible in the mid 80′s i never felt. I blame Arsene Wenger and his crop of underachieving overpaid brats.

    Denilson – should learn to keep him mouth shout – saying that he was going to prove Evra wrong about calling him a boy. I thought I saw Evra give Denilson a nappy at the end of the game.

    Almunia – how many calamitous errors has he made this season already, which has resulted in the opposition scoring goals due to his mistakes?

    Clichy – someone should have thrown him armbands he was drowning – he got truly toasted by Young and by Nani

    Arshavin – greedy waste of space – another half season wonder, now you know why no other club went in for him

    Sagna – diabolical, the fact that he got substituted shows how terrible he was at defending and attacking.

    Rosicky – he played better when he was injured

    Time for the board to sell up and for Wenger to go – i would rather die on my feet, then live on my knees
15. Roader100 says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:22 am

    All these years of watching Arsenal, yet you are unable to interpret what your eyes have witnessed from the Clock End or other such places. Not only do you have difficulty understanding complicated or uncomplicated interactions between Arsenal and the opposition, you also are unable to grasp the slightly complicated world your ‘Beloved’ team inhabit. All I shall say is this, Sugar sacked Venables, when Spuds were a bigger club, he believed it was easy and anybody could manage a football team, there was not an established top four, but we were behind the spuds, you sir are a fool. I kind of wish Wenger would leave, just to spite morons like yourself.
16. matt says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:23 am

    I understand where this comes from but i cannot agree.We have been doing really well this year.You have to remember that the only clubs above us are run on a loss and are both heading for a really tough time financially.We are the only top club in the world that runs itself as an economically viable business in balance with having a great team.This makes me extremely proud to be a fan.If football was fair like american sports we would be dominating, but its not and if you want to have a go at someone then have a go at fifa because they allow billionaires to distort the market and in the long run ruin the game.We need rules not more money.
17. arsenalaction says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Good post, And thank you.. Join our forum mate
    http://arsenalaction.com/board/index.html
18. Madrid says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Give us Fabregass and Wenger now!!!!!We have the players and the money and the players,we just need the Professor
19. R-SEN says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:28 am

    The defeat on Sunday hurt us all and we are angry. We’re angry with the team, we’re angry with the manager and we can’t stand the media, Man U fans and even Spurs fans (???) who want to rub it in.

    The current squad does have a lot of players who lack not only in ability but also in mental strength. The manager has to take some responsibility for refusing to address these issues. Why does he continue to play Denilson? why does he not see the fact that Sagna can’t cross? why doesn’t he just buy a half decent goalkeeper from the lower leagues instead of persisting with that clown?

    These are all questions we’d like answers to but calling for Arsene Wenger to be sacked is ridiculous!!!

    The fact that a team with Denilson and Almunia still manages to get into the Chapmions League every year (something that the mighty Spurs and the wizard Harry don’t seem to be able to do) can only mean that Wenger is doing something right. He is over achieving with what he has and as to why he only has these resources probably has a lot to do with the stadium debt and the whole takeover business.

    Will Kroenke buy the club? will Usmanov step up? what exactly is going? do Arsenal really have money to spend on transfers?

    There are too many unanswered questions and I’m not sure the club is anywhere nearly stable at the moment so do you really think right now there is anyone else out there who could come in and do a better job for Arsenal Football Club than Arsene Wenger?
20. Avramoski says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:30 am

    “Lets get us Hiddink!”

    If Hiddink was so good why he get kick from Chelsea and didnt sucsses with reacher Chealse team?
21. BOB says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:30 am

    YOU ARE RIGHT ARSENAL WILL WIN THINGS WHEN WENGER GOSES PEOPLE DONT UNDER STAND PEOPLE GET THE HUMP BECAUSE WE LOVE ARSENAL NOT THE BOARD
    WENNGER SAID WE NEED A STRIKER FOR 8 WEEKS BEFORE
    THE WINDOW OPENED THEN HE WENT SILENT .WE NEEDED A STIKER LET NO ONE SAY WE DONT.THEN HE SAYS THIER IS NO ONE TO BUY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT UP ARE STANDERD .THEN ON SUNDAY WE HAVE NO STRIKER ON THE PITCH IN THE BIGEST MATCH OF ARE SEASON .AND SAY WE LOSE TO CHELSEA I HOPE NOT .AND CITY WIN THIER 2 GAMES IN HAND AND WIN ON SATURDAY THEY GO INTO 3RD SO ARE WE LOOKING AT 4TH .DO WE WANT TOWIN THE TITLE AGAIN. I LOVE MY CLUB ARSENAL GUNNER FOR EVER
22. Gooner77 says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:31 am

    There’s no point in going on about us being the Bank of England club in the 30s, clubs like Wolves and Preston were also big at one point, where are they now?
    Basically what you’re doing is reading blogs, reading the newspapers and talking with your mates before and after games. You know how hard it is to stay at the top in this game? Would you really rather the club sold out to a rich owner who places us in debt? Did you know that every other club that has changed grounds in recent times has actually been relegated from the Premier league? Wenger has managed to keep us relatively competitive and in the top four but has achieved the move which was probably the most important move we have made in 100 years.
23. Bonksy says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:33 am

    we would have been better off staying at Highbury – the club moved to the new soulless passionless stadium so we can compete financially and to go out and buy the best players – well i’m still waiting for this miracle to happen.
24. FATGINGER says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:36 am

    i dont ever remember saying that wenger signed Bergkamp! that would be foolish seeing as Rioch bought him, as you have already stated so well in your statement.

    everyone has been frustrated by the lack of trophies over the last few seasons, but what some fans seem unable to grasp is that all this started with us moving stadiums and the economic impact this had on the club.

    Wenger kept us a top 4 club with these so called rubbish players such as Sagna, Clichy, Denilson, Arshavin, Almunia etc etc. These players were plucked out of nowhere by Wenger and if it wasnt for the scouting system in place we would have been looking for loan deals and free transfers because the funds werent there. How well do you think we would have done if we had to get loan signings and freebies?

    i understand you are annoyed at the recent lack of success, but dont kid yourself into thinking that the only people annoyed are the ones who want Wenger out. The people who want him to stay are also annoyed and by no way believe he is perfect, but we do have faith that there is no one better available out there to replace him and we are also capable of looking at the bigger picture.
25. matt says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Yes gooner 77 bang on.Its entertainment that wont be going away because we have wenger.Does abromovich care about chelsea.Do the players that move their and take huge wages care about chelsea.That is no club.And i feel sorry for chelsea fans who cannot see whats on the horizon.It wont be pretty.
    Fifa thanks for letting abromovich fuck english football in the arse.
26. K says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Arsenal without Wenger? Serious? Don’t get me wrong, I was disappointed and a little embarrassed with the displays against Man U and Chelsea and I have been saying for years that Almunia is a pile of crap BUT never can I or would I say a bad word about Wenger, Yes he sometimes treats the funds at Arsenal like his own savings account and is sooo tight with any type of spending and till recently would not make any change till the 74th minute BUT whether you or your dad or…like it or not Mr Wenger has made Arsenal football club what it is today…Would we have experienced the invincible season without Wenger? Would we have made the CL final and know we were good enough to win it if it was for a little of luck without Wenger?? Would we have had Henry, Pires,Overmars,Kanu Fabi, Asharvin etc without Wenger?? NO these are things you will be telling your kid about in 20 years when we would dream for another Wenger……………..stop complaining about our great team and amazing Manager, have faith and put the same effort in backing the manager and team and I promise you we will do it, EPL is not out of reach this year and nor is the CL.

    ARSENAL FC FOREVER!!!

    ps. I am sick of people saying losing fabi would not be a big loss……are you mad????? Did you not see the first villa game????? He is the most consistent player we have.
27. thevanster says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:40 am

    you my friend, are the epitome of stupid idiots who should not be allowed on the internet.

    WTF do we have? Average players? A third rate team who will finish third?

    “Wenger is god, if you don’t support him, you don’t support Arsenal.”

    Fuck off. There is more to Arsenal than Arsene Wenger
28. Bonksy says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:41 am

    Wenger didnt achieve the move – David Dein was the architect of it. Where is he now?

    You need to take your rose tinted glasses off – some of you cannot see the wood through the trees. Simply put this team is not good enough and the manager simply leaves much to be admired as he doesnt learn. I can give you examples of his inability to learn from his past mistakes. Couple of recent games to consider

    Stoke – last season, we got toasted by Rory Delaps long throws – you would have thought the team learnt how to defend against his throws. No they dont, FA Cup, Rory Delap long throw, header by some unknown attacker – 1 nil, end story we go out

    Man Utd – semi finals CL – counterattack break starts from their penalty box, 3 touches later Ronaldo makes it 3 nil. Sunday’s game – counterattack starts from their penalty box, 3 touches later Rooney makes it 3 nil

    Enough is enough – you lot are papering over the cracks – the cracks will only get wider. For the first time I saw a mass of fans having pops at Wenger from behind where he was sitting, this will only get louder and louder and worst.
29. truegunner says:
    February 2, 2010 at 11:59 am

    before anyone starts asking for Wenger’s head, have a read first, maybe the Board has something do do with Arsene’s approach to the transfer market. The club still has financial debts and I am sure that they are totally happy to have a manager who is capable of building a good squad with less money. Would Guus or any other manager accept such a deal and would he be capable of maintaining Arsenal’s status in the Premier league.

    Arsenal made a profit of £35.2 million and with debts of £297 million now fully under control, their financial position, while not ideal, looks promising.

    Speaking about his confidence in Arsenal’s standing in the game, despite the costly move from Highbury to the Emirates Stadium, club chief executive officer Ivan Gazidis told The Times last month:

    “There were a lot of questions when I came in 12 months ago about Highbury Square [the property development on the site of Arsenal’s former stadium], but we have made tremendous progress with that and it’s fairly clear that we’re going to make a profit from it.

    “The other debt is associated with the stadium and that is tied in at very good rates long term.

    “Not all debt is bad. Our debt has allowed us to build a new home which will take us into the future in a very healthy way and is extremely affordable. Financially the club is extremely well set. As we continue to grow as a business and as a club, we’re going to be able to be successful as far as the eye can see.

    “I don’t want to talk about other clubs, but the great thing about this club is that we can say with confidence that providing we don’t live beyond our resources, providing we don’t depend on outside funding for our success, we will compete at the very highest levels for the foreseeable future. That is a very strong position to be in.”
30. Gorakshep says:
    February 2, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    Now i know i haven`t been a saint really,but this hole point of posting everyday Wenger this Wenger that is ridiculous.For one thing we don`t run the club ,second thing if you are depressed or angry of the last match then don`t ,there are better things to be thought about than to be angry ,upset because of Denilson or Almunia ,that`s boring and just not on.You lose you lose what can you do about it!!
31. highbury hill says:
    February 2, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    we pay the most to in the world to watch arsenal this team has gone backwards in the last 5 years. time for some change are we happy with top 4 . the only people doing well at arsenal are share holders wenger has to much in put in our club he thinks he has to pay for the ground.any arsenal fan who thinks we are moveing forward have a good look at sundays game and the game v chelsea
32. Fred ( Uganda) says:
    February 2, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    I think Wanger has done a lot for the Club to be sacked like that. what the funs should know is that very soon the big clubs like Man U, Chelsea etc are about to collapse because of their financial status. This is what Wanger is fighting against. The problem I have with Wanger is that he over protects the players saying that they are still young. He should learn to discipline the players whenever they make mistakes by benching the player.
    My humble appeal to professor Wanger is that you should balance three (good financial status, Quality football and Trophies). I am still optimistic that he can lead us to Promised Land.
33. Gooner from Sydney says:
    February 2, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    Are you kidding me? This whole website is the utter disgrace of Arsenal “fans”. Words can’t describe what I think of your pathetic attempts to bash the team I love. Ffs how can any sane person believe that your Arsenal fans? This is obviously written by a tottenham fag who pretends to support Arsenal just to stir crap. Your obvious knowledge of Arsenals history says a lot about where your loyalty is. All I can ever see on this trash hole is negative bs. Where are the articles after our remarable comeback after Chelsea? You pathetic little twats. Go f**k yourselves and go back to kissing rednoses arse.
34. old codger says:
    February 2, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    Guess what ?

    Man City (spent hundreds of millions), Liverpool (spent hundred million), Spuds (got none to spend), Aston Villa & 85 other professional clubs in England would love to be where Arsenal are now !

    6 months ago EVERYONE outside of Arsenal & quite a few TRAITORS inside Arsenal had written us off from getting a place in Europe.

    Only 1 team can win the Premiership & only 1 team can win the Champions league !

    We aint doing too badly. Anyone who finks otherwise is fooling themselves.
35. bjohnson says:
    February 2, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    HOWEVER 40 YEARS ON, I AM SURE YOU CAN NOW DECIDE WHO YOU SUPPORT – SO WHY DONT YOU JUST FUCK OFF WITH YOUR STUPIDITY!! MAN CITY BOUGHT ANOTHER PLAYER YESTERDAY, GO AND SUPPORT THEM.
    ROBINHO IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF SPENDING BIG AND NOT GUARANTING ANYTHING.
36. Gooner77 says:
    February 2, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    Actually Dein was opposed to the stadium move and Wenger was for it. Dein wanted us to move to Wembley. Are the cracks getting bigger? We’re having a better season in the league this year (so far) than last.
37. Don C says:
    February 2, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    I think what is happening in Arsenal now is down to David Dein’s depature. I think AW listen to that man when it comes to players that should be signed. AW may have the final say but David Dein opinion he respects and considers.
    Now we have Board members and Director that are happy with the what is happening.
    All i wanted from AW and the Board is to come out and tell us the truth. That we have no money to spend, and that the profit we made from the sell of Adebayor and Toure has been used to pay interest on loan. That Arsenal target for the next 10 yrs is to qualify for CL and not winining the PL. At least i will have a limited expectation. What i cannot stand anymore is “This team is young and will win thing” Its not working AW.
    The team is good but needs changes. From a decent KP to a top notch striker and another reliable defender. Is it only me that sees it or what?
38. shooy says:
    February 2, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Re-writing history there, I’m afraid Bonksy. Arsenal were mediocre for most of the 60s and all of the 50s, had a purple patch in the late sixties up until the first double, and then fell away miserably during the svernties (we were almost relagated!). A string of cup finals at the end of the 70s masked the fact that we were already falling behind Liverpool and struggled to hold on to our best players. In the early 80′s we were more noted for buying palyers who were past it. Things got much better in the Graham yeasr from the mid 80s and we started winning trophies again but few friends ( and who cared about that)!
39. Bonksy says:
    February 2, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    blah blah blah bullshit bullshit bullshit

    Wenger can fuck off, and all you plastic fans can fuck off with him.

    Bring out your dead!!!! Bring out your dead!!!! Bring out your dead!!!!!

    (During the Plague of London in 1666, they used to cry out this out in the streets of London and its very apt for whats going on at my beloved Arsenal)
40. Bonksy says:
    February 2, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    apologies 1665 – the Great Fire of London was 1666
41. Marko says:
    February 2, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    God we were so shite before Wenger came, George Graham had some success but we were so terrible to watch and Bruce Rioch was another Paul Hart. Where’s the petition to get this blog off the internet or to get moany cunt fans heads kicked in cause whenever we lose a game it’s always the same pricks that come out of the woodwork like so many insects. Makes me sick to know people like that support my club. Worst fans ever.
42. thenry says:
    February 2, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    why dont you start a petition to see how many people want your pointless blog removed?
    what have you done for Arsenal fc? in comparison to arsene Wenger.
    give it a rest you table waiter and go and support another club.
    its wankers liek you that give arsenal fans a bad name.
43. Big L says:
    February 2, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    Robinho is an example of a great player going to a small club nothing to do with a big money signing.

    If Robinho had come to us or gone to Chelsea he would have been a fantastic signing.
44. Hus says:
    February 5, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    Look everyone, lets calm down.

    I’ve been a season ticket holder and supporter for nearly 30 years. People who start petitions to get the manager sacked are going too far, but equally people who completely ignore wengers flaws and refuse to look ahead and plan are being equally short sighted.

    For me it is not about winning trophies, it is about seriously competing for them, I am talking about being in the hunt in April/May. We have been so close for so many years to being a truely great team and yes Wenger is responsible, however, Almunia, Eboue, Denilson are not fit for the Arsenal shirt, i dont dislike any of them.. they are just not good enough.

    The chap who mentioned Pat Rice as being a quiet no.2 has a point, but Wenger does not take criticism well and never has done, his stubborness clouds his reason.

    Everyone, including many of the coaching staff inside the club felt at the start of the season we needed at least 2/3 experienced hardened pro’s with technical ability and power. He placates teh fans with hollow promises to allow him to just do what he wants which is continue his youth project. I do not want him sacked but i want someone on the board to remind him he is responsible for the squad and put pressure on him.

    If you stop looking for ways to progress completely you go backwards. If he could not handle being told that a number of players in his squad are substandard and need to be replaced by real footballers rather than jammy upstarts then he can walk and I agree that Hiddink is perfectly capable of taking us forward although see few other options at the moment.

    If however, he is humble enough and intelligent enough to want to continue and improve the club further then he needs to snap out of his current daze and get back to building a team that can balance necessary power with technique. Why has his philosophy changed? why are we a team of technical lightweights?

    Where have all the powerful skillful athletes gone at Arsenal?
45. shooy says:
    February 5, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    I really hope you are a more thoughtful and intelligent person than is indicated here. That was just pathetic.

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