Poor tactics, stubborn, lack of spending.. In Arsene we trust?
I didn’t want to post straight after the game as some of you always say that my posts are just a knee jerk reaction.
But now i have had time to think about the game I have to say that the Arsenal fans who STILL have faith in wenger are ether to stupid to see the light or just as stubborn as Wenger.
Poor tactics - this 4-5-1 is clearly not working vs the better teams.If you are going to play with only one striker, he has got to be strong and able to holed the ball up and link the play. And also able to compete with the physical side of the game.
Who has Wenger been using ( Eduardo and Arshavin ) 2 of the smallest, weakest players you can find. And TBH both players have been made to look shit. You cant blame the players. Blame the manager for picking this crap.
Wenger didn’t sign a striker to play this role so why not go back 2 a 4-4-2?
Lack of signings - Wenger can bang on about how he nearly signed a player on deadline day and how he almost signed David Villa all he wants. The sad fact is that he had ALL last summer to address this problems. He had the money from the sales of Adebayor and Toure, ask 90% of fans or people who know something about the game if Arsenal were short of a few players to win the league and they would all say the same things. Need a keeper, A ball winner in midfield and a striker. We all knew that before the start of the season. Come the Jan transfer window were are in a fantastic position to fight for the title as both the chavs and Man utd have dropped points. We are top after a win vs Bolton but like me alot of fans still wanted Wenger to strengthen the team with maybe 2 signings to really give us a boost to kick on and win the league. The signings didn’t come and now 3 games on we are in danger of dropping out of the top 3 into 4th.
Playing players in their wrong position – How many times have we seen Eduardo and Nic on the wings, or Arshavin as a lone striker? its the square pegs in round holes debate again.
2 much faith in poor players - We all knew that Almunia was not good enough to be our long term number one keeper. Sometimes a keeper wins you a game by making match winning saves, Just like Cech did this weekend. Its seems like everytime Almunia has a shot on target it a goal. When was the last time he make a decent save of note? Denilson was never going to be good enough to cover for Song. We all knew that we needed one more DM player at the start of the season….
How many more things do you want?
I said before the Villa, Man Utd, Chavs and Liverpool games that to win the title we needed to take 9 pts from 12 pts, at the mo its 1pt from 9.. Just shows that we are not good enough to win the league. And if we lose to Liverpool? Then what? From 1st to 4th in 4 games
People can blame players like Almunia and Denilson all they want…the only person to blame is Wenger.
He is living off the glory days (before 2005) this needs to change. The in arsene we trust banner must now come down.
sign a petition to have wenger sacked?do you actually think that will happen because of a poll on some arsenal blog,i think arsene has earned the right to pick the team,i think he should stay aswell, but this summer now has got to be the year when we get rid of the shit ie ALMUNIA NASRI DENILSON CLICHY TRAORE SILVESTRE FABIANSKI and sign some proper players,we need to spend at least 50million this summer,if arsene doesnt then he should go then,not before
maciek and richard i see your point and share your anger and frustrations however the reasons for all this are not so straightforward . Wenger has been taking the flak for those dinosaurs on the board.The confusing thing is you dont just become a clueless manager over night .However he is not without blame and for one reason or another he has tried our patience . Myself and many Arsenal fans i know have decided to give him one more window of grace. ive been an Arsenal fan 35years and at the moment i dont recognise my Arsenal
i bet u don’t know anything of Arsenals history u fucking moron. go support spurs, i mean it. Arsenal don’t deserve you, and you dont deserve the Arsenal. prick!
Calm down crazy people! OK we may have a bit more money than is sometimes suggested, but it still isn’t that much compared to what the 2 teams above us have. Yes, that’s right, just 2 teams above us. How many managers could really come in and get us to win the league without £50 million + to spend on players? We don’t even have that! Then again I suppose we would have a fair bit from the sale of Cesc as he will leave if Wenger does.
Man Utd have arguably the best manager in the world and spend a fortune on players. Chelsea have also spent a fortune on players and their wages.
Who could we get in to replace Wenger (I wish to state I don’t think we should sack him at all). We haven’t won a trophy for 5 years and of course we all want one, but look at the bigger picture. If Wenger goes, this club will go into free fall. Players will leave (1st one will be Cesc), we will have to build again and in the mean time drop out of the Champions League places and then we wont be able to attract the best as we will be in the Europa league.
Wenger has changed the way this club works, from the 9 year olds to the 1st team. It will only start to bear fruit in the next couple of years as the lads who joined the new academy as 9 year olds are only about 18 now! Pease be patient and enjoy the football. It will come.
is anyone else thinking that clichy is shit? his positioning is appaling and some fans consider him the best lb in the prem. haha what a joke.he has been crap since giving that famous pen away vs birmingham and i have thought he was shit since then. against utd we conceded a goal due to his shitness and again at chelsea what was he doing leaving his position, when drogba was running there. he cannot even clear a ball! we need a solid leftback who is not crap. sorry about my moaning but i can’t see why he is still in the team and we need to buy a gk, lb, cb, dm and striker in the summer, and not a 21 year old french player who has played 12 games in ligue 2. we all know manuel almunia and denilson are appaling, but it is wenger who keeps faith in these players so they are not to blame. wenger has created arsenal but every manager will hit a point when he can do no further, and as much as it pains me to say i think his time is up. i am only giving my opinion and do not necessarily think i am right, but our defence has been far too poor this season even with vermaelen, and if u look back at goals conceded it is usually due to the left side or poor positioning.
On one hand I would praise Wenger for having done a good job with the resources he has been given.
But on the other hand I hate his moaning and excuses. A defeat can be one-off, but a series of big defeats, year after year, against your main rivals are not one-offs. To improve you must have the humility to admit that something is not right and to try and put it right.
Based on the resources available, Arsenal is indeed punching above its weight. But instead coming out with literally the same excuses every time we lose, Arsene should just be honest with the fans; we are not good enough to challenge for title; with the resources available, the best we can hope for is third. Otherwise Arsene would just be deluding the fans and himself, and thereby setting everybody up for a big fall when things dont work out.
Like every “expert pundit” and so callled expert bloggers, their answer to every lost is to buy and change tactics. Remember all these “expert Pundit” had failed miserably at managing even the smallest team. Reason: not stubborn enough and does not have any conviction. Buy and chop and change are their tactics.
Sir Alex was nearly hounded out by them.
BUY: yes I agree we need a few more players; but, WHO. Run through the list of players some of you suggested and figure where they are now. Of course there are the marque players that every one wish to have in their team. Dream on.
The question was, “in Arsene we trust?” The correct answer is, “not anymore”. Has everyone been hypnotized by Arsene into believing that #3 or #4 is the same as finishing first?????? Are you mad? “Almost” is for darts not football.
What a load of crap. At the start of the season we were written off, and to be honest looking at I squad, I had written us off too. But Arsene has used the squad he has and turned them into title challengers.
Yes, we need to sign players, but only the right players that will compliment the squad. We don’t want big ego’s like Adebayor who disrupt the team and we don’t want big names that don’t live up to expectations. Look at Rafa – how many times has he signed players who turned out to be rubbish.
The lack of fan support amazes me. Take a look at the Liverpool, Portsmouth even ManUre fans who stick by their team. Too many Gooners just want to bitch and moan everytime we don’t get a result.
I also realise tht Wenger don’t respect Arsenal funs even 1 bit. He is alwys behave like politicians who promise heaven during campaign bt once elected he delivered nothng. When transfer windows are open he promised to sign then he apply delaying tactics by buyin tyme bargaining b4 u knw it,the windows closed then we will hear i wanted to sign Messi bt barca never willing to sell hm. I now agree Wenger out,Rijkaard in.
He will never go as long as we keep getting 3rd or 4th and making good profits while giving the appearance of challenging on all fronts. The only thing that will bring him down is if we finish 5th. But the “In Arsene we trust” banner is an embarrassment and should come down as you say. Trust to do what? Most fans probably no longer trust him to bring trophies to the Club. It seems he can only be trusted to ensure $$profits and keep getting us into the CL.
this article probably just wants a response from supporters who never read this site or some spuds and chavs who wanna have a dig. sign mourinio? thats the biggest jok i’ve ever heard. go support some cheating scumbags like chelsea, hull or bolton you prick coz we are the arsenal who do the things the proper way!!
Do some fans not realise we’ve moved stadium recently? Arsenal as a business is in fantastic shape, some fans seemed to have ignored the fact that before the move we were warned there would be cut backs. Wenger isnt perfect but he’s still doing a very good job, the club might not be winning but it’s far from losing. Hopefully Arsene is at the club longer than some of these fans who seem to have all the answers.
Only one team can come first. On your reasoning, 19 managers should be sacked every season for not being the best. Don’t be so spoilt, we don’t have a right to win the league – and Wenger gives it his best shot the only way he knows how. Yes, he has faults and has made mistakes. 3rd is not 1st – but this idea that ‘it just isn’t good enough’?? What a load of tosh!
I was just watching the skysports fanzone replay of the chelsea game. Boy was that sad. the poor gooner commentator on there was made to look like an absolute mug.
But I’ve found that the best way to deal with Wenger supporters is face to face. I just laugh at them and mock them and Wenger to their face and they have no answer to it. On the web in blogs they can spin and spin but face to face if you just outright belly-laugh at them and mock them and belly-laugh at Wenger and mock him, his choreography, his ballet rehearsals and his ballerinas. If you just keep relentlessly laughing and mocking each and every one of the essentially limitless number of laughable and mockable things about Arsene and his ballet, it’s game over.
I personally feel that some of the gooners who live in London should get a bull-horn and stand outside Arsene’s house in the morning when he leaves and in the evening when he returns, relentlessly mocking him and his ballet at bull-horn decibels.
That’s what he deserves. Did any of you notice today how he threatened not to speak during his press conferences? If I was the reporter there I would have belly-laughed right in his face and pointed out the fact that nothing but horse-shit ever comes out of his mouth in those press conferences anyway.
In wenger we trust. Calling for his head is short sighted and stupid. The good thing about the mancs and chavs doing the double over us is that he will change the squad in the summer. Keeping Fab will be a key component to that.
Your suggestion of Mourinho proves that you haven’t got a clue. Go back to boring football….no thanks.
shut up. real spent 200m city spent 150m tottenam spent 100m they are first? arsavin&eduardo 2 of the smallest. rooney,tores,villa how big is? go and support mancity and shut up. there you will have big transfers
credit where credit is due, we got 3 points tonight and united and chelsea both dropped points.
I still cant help but think had we of brought a striker on Jan 1st we would have got something out of the last few games and the league is still gone, but 3 points is still 3 points
im getting sick of this bullshit. ferguson can blow millions on flop after flop pay them outrageous wages and everyone slaps him on the back and tells him how great he is. and this includes alot of premiership managers who lick his ass week in week out . case in point. did you see martin o neils reaction after the game tonight when carew should have got a penalty , he didnt even mention it in the interview. and after the game was over slapping ferguson on the back and licking his already licked out hole, imagine if this was against arsenal he would be moaning and whining at the ref and shouting at arsene corrupt wee prick that he is. sorry for the rant ,back to the topic.do you all think arsene is david blaine , you say he has 30 mill to spend well the last time i checked 30 mill would hardly buy you one decent player never mind the 3 or 4 great players you all want. its about time you got real. yes wenger has made mistakes but think about it this has mostly revolved around his lack of funds, can you honestly think a smart savvy guy like wenger would have let players like flamini etc leave, if he could afford their wages, ofcourse not. wenger will definitely come through for us. what other manager can buy a player for a couple mill and turn him into a star. tell me this would you like that prick morinho to come manage us, what will that fake ego tripping prick do with no money to spend i can guarentee , we would not make the top half of the table. guys just be rational and think before you speak, it is obvious there is no money. at present. also think of the high amount of injuries to key players we have had in the last couple of yrs, and think about how wenger discovered players like adebayor and hleb etc and how the pricks left us once they got a better offer from other clubs, if it wasnt for this combo of things we would have a team good enough to win loads of trophies. wenger will spend this summer and this time nex yr we all will be very happy people. anyways im off to apply for a job. manchester utd fc are looking for a person or a monkey either will do. as not much of an iq is needed the sucessfull applicant must like spending millions on overrated flops untill he finally gets it right, he also must show a penchant for paying off the odd ref so his players can then dive to win penalties or free kicks, and also so his players can kick the opposition off the park and get away with it. finally and this may be the clincher, you must have a flair for convincing people you are the best at what you do. and make them believe that money has nothing at all to do with the sucess of your club. wish me luck guys im bringing my pet chimpanzee along for back up.
No, the reason he gets a bashing is bescause he is more motivated to critise Arseanl than to support them. Sinbad, do you cheer when we score; will you celebrate when we win the CL this year. When that happens will you shut up?
What arsenal needs is a system like barcelona and real madrid where the fans vote for a president and a system where the fans can buy shares, this system of operation is the only way forward. what we have at arsenal is an oligarchy who feels they can do whatever they want without any accountability.
Wenger has to accountable to the fans
the board has to be accountable to the fans. arsenal is for the fans and not for boardmembers or managers who test failing philosophies
[...] Poor tactics, stubborn, lack of spending.. In Arsene we trust? I didn’t want to post straight after the game as some of you always say that my posts are just a knee jerk [...] [...]
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sign a petition to have wenger sacked?do you actually think that will happen because of a poll on some arsenal blog,i think arsene has earned the right to pick the team,i think he should stay aswell, but this summer now has got to be the year when we get rid of the shit ie ALMUNIA NASRI DENILSON CLICHY TRAORE SILVESTRE FABIANSKI and sign some proper players,we need to spend at least 50million this summer,if arsene doesnt then he should go then,not before
Nickoman- he has had 8 transfer windows to improve our situation and to stop making the same mistakes. He has faild. He is to stubborn!
5 years and counting–no trophies, means no success–end of story.
I don’t want Wenger to have another transfer window, it would be pointles. He wouldn’t buy anyone anyway.
when you write with such passion, i just want to suck all the cum out of your nuts
maciek and richard i see your point and share your anger and frustrations however the reasons for all this are not so straightforward . Wenger has been taking the flak for those dinosaurs on the board.The confusing thing is you dont just become a clueless manager over night .However he is not without blame and for one reason or another he has tried our patience . Myself and many Arsenal fans i know have decided to give him one more window of grace. ive been an Arsenal fan 35years and at the moment i dont recognise my Arsenal
i bet u don’t know anything of Arsenals history u fucking moron. go support spurs, i mean it. Arsenal don’t deserve you, and you dont deserve the Arsenal. prick!
Calm down crazy people! OK we may have a bit more money than is sometimes suggested, but it still isn’t that much compared to what the 2 teams above us have. Yes, that’s right, just 2 teams above us. How many managers could really come in and get us to win the league without £50 million + to spend on players? We don’t even have that! Then again I suppose we would have a fair bit from the sale of Cesc as he will leave if Wenger does.
Man Utd have arguably the best manager in the world and spend a fortune on players. Chelsea have also spent a fortune on players and their wages.
Who could we get in to replace Wenger (I wish to state I don’t think we should sack him at all). We haven’t won a trophy for 5 years and of course we all want one, but look at the bigger picture. If Wenger goes, this club will go into free fall. Players will leave (1st one will be Cesc), we will have to build again and in the mean time drop out of the Champions League places and then we wont be able to attract the best as we will be in the Europa league.
Wenger has changed the way this club works, from the 9 year olds to the 1st team. It will only start to bear fruit in the next couple of years as the lads who joined the new academy as 9 year olds are only about 18 now! Pease be patient and enjoy the football. It will come.
is anyone else thinking that clichy is shit? his positioning is appaling and some fans consider him the best lb in the prem. haha what a joke.he has been crap since giving that famous pen away vs birmingham and i have thought he was shit since then. against utd we conceded a goal due to his shitness and again at chelsea what was he doing leaving his position, when drogba was running there. he cannot even clear a ball! we need a solid leftback who is not crap. sorry about my moaning but i can’t see why he is still in the team and we need to buy a gk, lb, cb, dm and striker in the summer, and not a 21 year old french player who has played 12 games in ligue 2. we all know manuel almunia and denilson are appaling, but it is wenger who keeps faith in these players so they are not to blame. wenger has created arsenal but every manager will hit a point when he can do no further, and as much as it pains me to say i think his time is up. i am only giving my opinion and do not necessarily think i am right, but our defence has been far too poor this season even with vermaelen, and if u look back at goals conceded it is usually due to the left side or poor positioning.
he will need one more window to sell rvp and fab and prob bring in scholes and giggs
On one hand I would praise Wenger for having done a good job with the resources he has been given.
But on the other hand I hate his moaning and excuses. A defeat can be one-off, but a series of big defeats, year after year, against your main rivals are not one-offs. To improve you must have the humility to admit that something is not right and to try and put it right.
Based on the resources available, Arsenal is indeed punching above its weight. But instead coming out with literally the same excuses every time we lose, Arsene should just be honest with the fans; we are not good enough to challenge for title; with the resources available, the best we can hope for is third. Otherwise Arsene would just be deluding the fans and himself, and thereby setting everybody up for a big fall when things dont work out.
Like every “expert pundit” and so callled expert bloggers, their answer to every lost is to buy and change tactics. Remember all these “expert Pundit” had failed miserably at managing even the smallest team. Reason: not stubborn enough and does not have any conviction. Buy and chop and change are their tactics.
Sir Alex was nearly hounded out by them.
BUY: yes I agree we need a few more players; but, WHO. Run through the list of players some of you suggested and figure where they are now. Of course there are the marque players that every one wish to have in their team. Dream on.
The question was, “in Arsene we trust?” The correct answer is, “not anymore”. Has everyone been hypnotized by Arsene into believing that #3 or #4 is the same as finishing first?????? Are you mad? “Almost” is for darts not football.
What a load of crap. At the start of the season we were written off, and to be honest looking at I squad, I had written us off too. But Arsene has used the squad he has and turned them into title challengers.
Yes, we need to sign players, but only the right players that will compliment the squad. We don’t want big ego’s like Adebayor who disrupt the team and we don’t want big names that don’t live up to expectations. Look at Rafa – how many times has he signed players who turned out to be rubbish.
The lack of fan support amazes me. Take a look at the Liverpool, Portsmouth even ManUre fans who stick by their team. Too many Gooners just want to bitch and moan everytime we don’t get a result.
I also realise tht Wenger don’t respect Arsenal funs even 1 bit. He is alwys behave like politicians who promise heaven during campaign bt once elected he delivered nothng. When transfer windows are open he promised to sign then he apply delaying tactics by buyin tyme bargaining b4 u knw it,the windows closed then we will hear i wanted to sign Messi bt barca never willing to sell hm. I now agree Wenger out,Rijkaard in.
what the fuck you suggesting to bring in mourhino that son of the bitch who is only good in self admiring, self center and chess playing tactics
He will never go as long as we keep getting 3rd or 4th and making good profits while giving the appearance of challenging on all fronts. The only thing that will bring him down is if we finish 5th. But the “In Arsene we trust” banner is an embarrassment and should come down as you say. Trust to do what? Most fans probably no longer trust him to bring trophies to the Club. It seems he can only be trusted to ensure $$profits and keep getting us into the CL.
Cesc from the halfwayline
in a 4-4-2
this article probably just wants a response from supporters who never read this site or some spuds and chavs who wanna have a dig. sign mourinio? thats the biggest jok i’ve ever heard. go support some cheating scumbags like chelsea, hull or bolton you prick coz we are the arsenal who do the things the proper way!!
Do some fans not realise we’ve moved stadium recently? Arsenal as a business is in fantastic shape, some fans seemed to have ignored the fact that before the move we were warned there would be cut backs. Wenger isnt perfect but he’s still doing a very good job, the club might not be winning but it’s far from losing. Hopefully Arsene is at the club longer than some of these fans who seem to have all the answers.
Only one team can come first. On your reasoning, 19 managers should be sacked every season for not being the best. Don’t be so spoilt, we don’t have a right to win the league – and Wenger gives it his best shot the only way he knows how. Yes, he has faults and has made mistakes. 3rd is not 1st – but this idea that ‘it just isn’t good enough’?? What a load of tosh!
IAWT
Wenger out MaureenHo in?
You complete and utter imbecile, be thankful websites aren’t vetted for bullshit otherwise your’s would of been taken down long ago.
I was just watching the skysports fanzone replay of the chelsea game. Boy was that sad. the poor gooner commentator on there was made to look like an absolute mug.
But I’ve found that the best way to deal with Wenger supporters is face to face. I just laugh at them and mock them and Wenger to their face and they have no answer to it. On the web in blogs they can spin and spin but face to face if you just outright belly-laugh at them and mock them and belly-laugh at Wenger and mock him, his choreography, his ballet rehearsals and his ballerinas. If you just keep relentlessly laughing and mocking each and every one of the essentially limitless number of laughable and mockable things about Arsene and his ballet, it’s game over.
I personally feel that some of the gooners who live in London should get a bull-horn and stand outside Arsene’s house in the morning when he leaves and in the evening when he returns, relentlessly mocking him and his ballet at bull-horn decibels.
That’s what he deserves. Did any of you notice today how he threatened not to speak during his press conferences? If I was the reporter there I would have belly-laughed right in his face and pointed out the fact that nothing but horse-shit ever comes out of his mouth in those press conferences anyway.
In wenger we trust. Calling for his head is short sighted and stupid. The good thing about the mancs and chavs doing the double over us is that he will change the squad in the summer. Keeping Fab will be a key component to that.
Your suggestion of Mourinho proves that you haven’t got a clue. Go back to boring football….no thanks.
shut up. real spent 200m city spent 150m tottenam spent 100m they are first? arsavin&eduardo 2 of the smallest. rooney,tores,villa how big is? go and support mancity and shut up. there you will have big transfers
oh i forget. when you support mancity you can buy rayn babel&felippe melo
i bet u only started supporting man city since there big money takeover so shut the fuk up
chamakh is going to sign a pre season contract on friday
like we changed the squad last summer or the summner before that or the summer before that.
perhaps you mean letting key players go is changing the squad.
credit where credit is due, we got 3 points tonight and united and chelsea both dropped points.
I still cant help but think had we of brought a striker on Jan 1st we would have got something out of the last few games and the league is still gone, but 3 points is still 3 points
Can you imagine the crap this site would write if we’d lost at Everton and drawn at Hull in consecutive away games?
im getting sick of this bullshit. ferguson can blow millions on flop after flop pay them outrageous wages and everyone slaps him on the back and tells him how great he is. and this includes alot of premiership managers who lick his ass week in week out . case in point. did you see martin o neils reaction after the game tonight when carew should have got a penalty , he didnt even mention it in the interview. and after the game was over slapping ferguson on the back and licking his already licked out hole, imagine if this was against arsenal he would be moaning and whining at the ref and shouting at arsene corrupt wee prick that he is. sorry for the rant ,back to the topic.do you all think arsene is david blaine , you say he has 30 mill to spend well the last time i checked 30 mill would hardly buy you one decent player never mind the 3 or 4 great players you all want. its about time you got real. yes wenger has made mistakes but think about it this has mostly revolved around his lack of funds, can you honestly think a smart savvy guy like wenger would have let players like flamini etc leave, if he could afford their wages, ofcourse not. wenger will definitely come through for us. what other manager can buy a player for a couple mill and turn him into a star. tell me this would you like that prick morinho to come manage us, what will that fake ego tripping prick do with no money to spend i can guarentee , we would not make the top half of the table. guys just be rational and think before you speak, it is obvious there is no money. at present. also think of the high amount of injuries to key players we have had in the last couple of yrs, and think about how wenger discovered players like adebayor and hleb etc and how the pricks left us once they got a better offer from other clubs, if it wasnt for this combo of things we would have a team good enough to win loads of trophies. wenger will spend this summer and this time nex yr we all will be very happy people. anyways im off to apply for a job. manchester utd fc are looking for a person or a monkey either will do. as not much of an iq is needed the sucessfull applicant must like spending millions on overrated flops untill he finally gets it right, he also must show a penchant for paying off the odd ref so his players can then dive to win penalties or free kicks, and also so his players can kick the opposition off the park and get away with it. finally and this may be the clincher, you must have a flair for convincing people you are the best at what you do. and make them believe that money has nothing at all to do with the sucess of your club. wish me luck guys im bringing my pet chimpanzee along for back up.
What a sorry cretinous little cunt you are.
No, the reason he gets a bashing is bescause he is more motivated to critise Arseanl than to support them. Sinbad, do you cheer when we score; will you celebrate when we win the CL this year. When that happens will you shut up?
havent heard much from you now that we are only 6 points off the lead and still in with a shout!!!
or do you just crawl out from your shithole when Arsenal are having a rough patch???
prick!
What arsenal needs is a system like barcelona and real madrid where the fans vote for a president and a system where the fans can buy shares, this system of operation is the only way forward. what we have at arsenal is an oligarchy who feels they can do whatever they want without any accountability.
Wenger has to accountable to the fans
the board has to be accountable to the fans. arsenal is for the fans and not for boardmembers or managers who test failing philosophies